The answer to making a diceless RPG still a challenge comes in the form of resource management. MURPG uses energy stones that replenish at different rates for each character based on his (highly customizable) stats. At each point of contest, be it a match of wits or brawn, the players take up a number of these stones (maximum of which is limited by a relavent stat and bonus stones from boons) without telling the number to the other players or the GM, who does the same based on the challenge. After both have alloted how much energy they will dedicate to the action, they reveal the stones and the person who dedicated more wins…frequently with a numeric effect like damage occuring relative to the difference. The tradeoff is that based on the characters regeneration rate, that character may not get many of those stones back for the next “panel”, their word for round.

The hack of the system would be placing an energy pool that has a higher maximum or refresh rate based on what’s at stake for the individual character. With this in place, you could even have a character who is frequently the one lagging behind combat-wise outshine his allies if the stakes are high enough for him, or create abilities (which MURPG offers a robust power generation system) that pull only from that pool, so the character can’t unlock their hidden tallent until there is appropriate thematic reason to do so.

At any rate, I hope you’re closer to your dream game now than you were in April of 2008. Good luck!

These fights tend to have a natural pro-wrestling like flow where, as you say, the good guy gets defeated and then comes back stronger to win the day. The level of certainty I think varies (there’s Revolutionary Girl Utena, where duels are 100% decided by who “deserves” to win), and the emphasis is less on whether someone can win, but how and at what cost. (SPOILER) It would’ve been strange for Kenshin to lose against Aoi on his way to fight Shishio (the last boss, basically), but the fight put incredible strain on his body, and revealed his Succession Technique to one of Shishio’s henchmen.

The end of a fight is basically either an epiphany that lets the hero win and become better, or a defeat that sets other things in motion. In Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS, Teana finally beats the two combat cyborgs by taking her tactical planning to the next level, and learning that while she makes a great team with Subaru, she has to stand on her own sometimes. When Kenshin is fighting Cho, he gives in and attacks with Shakku’s final sword, and finds that the craftsman who had made so many swords for killing, at the last wanted peace, and made a reverse-blade sword of the highest quality.

Fights between true protagonists are very rare, and from what I’ve seen your assessment is correct. s-CRY-ed builds up a rivalry between Kazama and Ryuho through the entire series, and dedicates the entire final episode to a knock-down-drag-out between them, but IIRC it’s basically inconclusive. The rivalry between Goku and Vegeta is a little different, in that Vegeta is always lagging a little behind Goku in power, to the point where the frustration leads him to let himself fall under Babidi’s power, putting the world in danger. Basically, protagonists can have eternal rivalries, but they rarely if ever have closure.

I don’t think the same fights get repeated too much. If the hero faces the same villain twice, it’s because the first time the villain was so overwhelming that it was completely one-sided. In Bleach, Ichigo’s confrontation with Byakuya was very much like this. One of the central cliches is a continual cycle of lesser bad guys leading up to the main confrontation, whatever form that might take. Before fighting Vegeta the first time, Goku and company had to deal with Nappa, and before that Raditz. Kenshin and his comrades had to deal with the Juupongatana before Shishio.

And thank you for the comments. This is really helping me figure out what the game would need. :)

Now, that underlying principal that fighting strength is, on some level, internal to the fighter is a powerful one, and its one I love to see brought to bear in rpgs, which is why I’m fond of rules that make those internal things matter to the conflict (Passions, Aspects, or whatever) but at the same time when they are the _dominant_ thing, then either they become meaningless (since everyone applies everything all the time, and it just become a number comparison) or they produce sometimes nonsensical results where the _only_ thing that matters is what the characters care about (this is a problem I have had with In a Wicked Age, as an example).

So I suppose my question comes in two parts: First – in these animes, how often is the outcome _genuinely_ uncertain? In my experience there may be questions of stakes, prices, and such, but the expected winner can pretty much be expected to draw strength from within to be able to be overcome (or, alternately if it’s a loss, it’s the loss that then defines the subsequent power-up arc, to fight again). But as I note, my experience is limited, so the fact that I have rarely been surprised does not mean these outcomes are not often surprising.

Second – and mechanically this may be most telling – how do these anime handle protagonist vs. protagonist fights? And in saying protagonist vs protagonist, I mean when both characters have some narrative legitimacy to win – if it’s one character’s arc, then it’s not necessarily a fair fight. I have usually seen these end in draws, distractions and other cop outs, which is not useful to me, but again: limited experience.

I prove myself a liar and add a third: How often are the _same_ fights repeated? Excepting the “I will lose to this guy now, got through great trauma to power up, then defeat him later” sequence, I get the sense that part of the point of the vast cast of characters in these Animes is to allow infinite potential combinations to pair off and fight (and in turn raise discussions of “who would win, X or Y?”).

Anyway, those are the questions that this puts firmly in my mind.

How is this the game’s responsability? Isn’t it the GM’s and players’ job to make their game fun?

My first thought is to wonder if maybe HeroWars/Quest could handle this, but then I haven’t actually played that game, so I’m not sure how well the Mastery scaling would fit the feel. AP bidding at least brings to mind the back-and-forth clashing beam wars that tend to show up in this subgenre.